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RII - August 11, 2008, 8:49 am,
Religious people are always too stupid to realize that omniscience precludes free will. More simply if god knows everything, you have no choice or free will. If god doesn't, he's not god.
The Earth used to be flat. - August 12, 2008, 7:07 pm,
Yes because knowing something forces it to be true!
Wait what? - August 12, 2008, 10:05 pm,
You're saying if God knows something it overrides your choice in the matter? How in the hell do you get that?
RII - August 12, 2008, 11:22 pm,
I'm glad someone understands! Yes, knowing what 'choice' you'll make eliminates the 'choice' bit. Ergo no free will is possible for goddites.
Sean - August 12, 2008, 11:29 pm,
Uhhhmmm ... that's "godomites". Rhymes with "sodomites" ... and for good reason.
Sean - August 12, 2008, 11:32 pm,
But I do agree with your point: omniscience presupposes a complete abscence of free will. If I truly have free will, then G-O-D can't lnow what I am going to do, until after I have decided to do it. And so H-E is not omniscient.
Wait what? - August 14, 2008, 10:47 pm,
No no no. I misstated my question. I should have asked, HOW does God knowing something override your choice in the matter? Is it because he does or does not act to prevent you? Is it because he has the theoretical ability to? I'm sorry but I don't quite u
RII - August 15, 2008, 2:34 am,
It isn't a theory, if he has always possessed knowledge of every choice you will ever make then you literally cannot choose. You will do what he has always know you will do. You live life on god's rails, locked to the path he set and saw at the moment of
RII - August 15, 2008, 2:35 am,
...moment of creation.
RnR - August 15, 2008, 4:03 am,
God is omnipresent, thus God is also IN me. God is failsafe and undivisible. Hence since he is in me and undivisible.... I AM GOD. Bow to my might, i AM a CRUEL GOD.
Wait What? - August 15, 2008, 7:56 am,
I'm sorry, maybe I'm just being thick here, but that still hasn't answered my question. How does his knowledge prevent me from choosing? I don't see how his knowing what choice I'm going to make takes the choice from my hands. If you are stating that by e
Wait What? - August 15, 2008, 7:56 am,
existing he must necessarily interfere then I understand, but it doesn't make sense that the fact of his knowledge would remove my free will.
RII - August 15, 2008, 9:34 pm,
Put it this way, 6,000 years ago when Yahweh cooked up the universe he set in stone your path. You cannot deviate from it by 'choosing' to do other than what he knows you will do. Your 'choices' are illusions created by the limits of your knowledge.
RII - August 15, 2008, 9:36 pm,
This isn't an invention of atheist philosophers either, just look up Calvinism for example.
Wait What - August 15, 2008, 10:01 pm,
That may be what Calvin thought, (I'm not one hundred percent on his ideas) but that's still not right. It's entirely possible to have knowledge of someones actions without having an effect on them. You can say that if God exists he MUST have railroaded o
Wait What - August 15, 2008, 10:02 pm,
our paths, but I don't see the evidence for it. From what I understand of Calvinism and protestantism there is still room for a persons choice. All I'm saying is that Omniscience does not by necessity preclude free will.
RII - August 16, 2008, 11:36 am,
Not merely 'knowledge,' foreknowledge. What you see as choices are, in fact, simply the steps that have been laid out for you from the start of time. If you deny that god made all your choices for you then you deny the omniscience of god (And omnipresence
Wait What - August 16, 2008, 1:07 pm,
Meh. I still don't get it. It just seems to me that you are throwing that on there because you don't want to believe it rather than for any well thought out reason.
RII - August 17, 2008, 12:13 am,
So let's try a different context. Let's say *I* am omniscient. I search you out and tell you that on August 14th, 2011 you'll rush into a burning building and save a dozen babies from death without a single scratch on yourself.
RII - August 17, 2008, 12:15 am,
August 14th rolls around and you do precisely as a I said, 'choosing' to rush into that building and 'risk' your life. Are you a hero, or just fate's bitch? You were never in any danger, as you and I both knew, and you never had the option of not going in
RII - August 17, 2008, 12:16 am, in what sense did you make a choice? What was your role on that day, except to play the same part as the faulty wire that started the fire?
Sean - August 17, 2008, 12:27 am,
Hey RII, what if GOD's omniscience is the result of His access to "temporal worm holes", you know, sort of a time-tunnel kind of a thingy that allows Him to fast forward into the future to a given time and place and in that way know what has happened and
Sean - August 17, 2008, 12:28 am,
--therefore what will happen? In that way God's omniscience does not preclude free will .... Just a thought -- and likely an equivocation on the word "omniscience".
Motifake Wit Liberation Front - August 17, 2008, 2:06 am,
What if god gives me some information about the future, but I don't trust God, and so I don't take it at face value, but merely consider his postulation a possible outcome?
Motifake Wit Liberation Front - August 17, 2008, 2:07 am,
Let me also take a quick moment to point out that we now have forums you could take this discussion to. I'm just sayin'.
RnR - August 17, 2008, 4:59 am,
good point. let's get a (chat)room :) Here's a good one: if god is ever forced into existence, it'll be because of all the atheists hammering the point that he doesnt exist. :)
RII - August 17, 2008, 8:19 pm,
Sure, forum's fine with me, I just thought this was simple. I mean, if I pick your lottery numbers you can't say you chose them. Gods all claim to have picked all our numbers, and all our everything else too; i.e. 'omniscience'
Sean - August 17, 2008, 8:30 pm,
Of course it's only if your God has to be omniscient that you run into this problem, and if He also has to be omnipotent? Well then, Can your God build a lock that even He can't pick? If you're a theist, just don't over-reach.
Motifake Wit Liberation Front - August 17, 2008, 11:53 pm,
Yeah, I like my gods like the greco-roman gods, multitudinous, petty, psychologically damaged, prone to fucking mortals and playing dress up. Those are some entertaining gods; Yahweh was never entertaining.
Wait What - August 20, 2008, 7:41 pm,
Forums work fine for me if someone wants to start one. The problem with the lottery situation is that it's more like knowing that if a person goes to the store to pick up a lottery ticket he'll pick the winning numbers and doing nothing to help or hinder.
Wait What - August 20, 2008, 7:43 pm,
Just knowing it did not take away the persons choice to go to the store, or force him to pick the numbers. The same with the babies. You're giving the person the information before hand. God does not do that. He might tell a person to do something but it'
Wait What - August 20, 2008, 7:44 pm,
it's still their choice.
An atheist - August 20, 2008, 9:48 pm,
Free will does not excuse your (imaginary) god from protecting the victims of crime, natural disaster, etc. The only way it would be consistent is if one perverts the notion of goodness to suit the myth.
RII - August 21, 2008, 11:03 am,
No, if the knowledge of what 'choice' will be made exists before the moment of that 'choice' then no choice, no free will, is possible. The beliefs of the person doing the supposed choosing are irrelevant.
Wait What - August 21, 2008, 12:18 pm,
An Atheist, what do you mean by goodness? Apart from the existence of Good the ideas of good and evil are only subjective and therefore meaningless. RII, Explain to me HOW knowledge of what a person will do takes away their choice. That does not make sens
Wait What - August 21, 2008, 12:19 pm,
That does not make sense. You've got Point A and you've given a Point C, but you've skipped B comepletely.
RII - August 21, 2008, 3:06 pm,
Your obtuse act is increasingly difficult to swallow, but I've got a little time. Choice is the process of selecting one options from many possibilities.
RII - August 21, 2008, 3:07 pm,
If all but one of those possibilities is, in fact, impossible, then by definition choice is also impossible. Any being claiming to be a god must be omniscient, knowing all things.
RII - August 21, 2008, 3:08 pm,
That includes all decisions made by all beings at all times, and having that knowledge before any of those beings exist. It is not possible for a being to choose other than the choice god knows will be made.
RII - August 21, 2008, 3:09 pm,
Did you see that 'not possible?' i.e. Impossible. You cannot do other than what God has forseen. You are not making a choice, no matter what you believe, you are only doing what you have been destined by god's foreknowledge to do.
RII - August 21, 2008, 3:11 pm,
Example: I am faced with the apparent choice of aborting a baby or keeping it. However 6k years ago god had the knowledge that I would abort. Even if I very strongly want to keep the baby god's foreknowledge inherently forbids it, he has always known my c
RII - August 21, 2008, 3:12 pm,
'choice' and, in fact, by virtue of his omnipotence he alone can be direct responsibility for any apparent 'choice,' but that's a side issue. :p
Wait What - August 21, 2008, 5:13 pm,
Alright look, it's apparent that we are not going to be able to agree on this. This will be the last thing I will say on the point. It seems to me that what you are saying is, If I know a person well enough to predict their actions before they make them I
Wait What - August 21, 2008, 5:14 pm,
have somehow prevented them from having a choice in the matter. Your example is flawed in that you say if you strongly want to keep the baby God's foreknowledge is the thing preventing you from doing so when in fact it is whatever stronger desire within y
Wait What - August 21, 2008, 5:14 pm,
you choose to kill the child. God may have placed you in a situation, and he may have known what you would do, but in neither helping nor hindering your decision, the responsibility is on you.
Wait What - August 21, 2008, 5:16 pm,
If I have been pigheaded, insulting, or obstinate, I apologize. I did not mean to be so.
ax - August 31, 2008, 4:32 pm,
ax - August 31, 2008, 4:52 pm,
RnR - September 5, 2008, 7:32 am,
gee, people.. for cryin out loud.. get a (chat)room
Bill - October 6, 2008, 2:06 pm,
So you're saying that there's a god. But this god doesn't have the power to impact the decisions of a group of domestic apes. That fits into the first category. This "god" would not be omnipotent.
[email protected] - October 30, 2008, 10:37 pm,
Theists: always seem to forget their their opinions/beliefs are the epitome of ignorance and stupidity and should never be voiced.
walkerofskies - November 18, 2008, 9:51 am,
I am agnostic so you cannot call me biased. I think people don't understand that there is no such thing as the future because there is only what has happened with is happening and thoughts are not something that can be read. They are an abstract idea th
walker of skies - November 18, 2008, 10:06 am,
ey are simply a series of electric currents going through the brain, not words in a book. Also if God controls everything why would he create people like Hitler, Osama Bin Ladin, or Sadam Hussein.
MEH - November 18, 2008, 10:17 am,
to keep the rest of us on our toes..!
walkerofskies - November 18, 2008, 11:50 am,
The way I see it if there is a God I see him more as a guy watching a movie at the theatre rather than a puppet master. Also that was pretty funny.
barockeva - January 17, 2009, 1:35 am,
An all-knowing god cannot co-exist with free will.
Elder God Douchebag - January 17, 2009, 11:19 am,
Yes I can.
ikilblax - March 23, 2009, 9:13 pm,
all i have to say is that GOD is atheist
smuggler - May 30, 2009, 12:34 pm,
why not put all of us in heaven?
R Dawkins - August 12, 2009, 12:32 am,
We evolved free will like many other species before us.
Deleo - June 2, 2010, 7:02 am,
The question was not about where evil comes from, but whether or not God is able and willing to prevent it. If God is both able and willing, then why does evil still exist? If God is incabable of either or both, then why should we worship him?
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